I do not meet in private because I am afraid to have meetings in public. I bless the Lord that my heart is at that point, that if any man can lay anything to my charge, either in doctrine or practice, in this particular, that can be proved error or heresy, I am willing to disown it, even in the very market place; but if it be truth, then to stand to it to the last drop of my blood. And, Sir, said I, you ought to commend me for so doing. To err and to be a heretic are two things; I am no heretic, because I will not stand refractorily to defend any one thing that is contrary to the Word. Prove anything which I hold to be an error, and I will recant it.

Cobb. But, Goodman Bunyan, said he, methinks you need not stand so strictly upon this one thing, as to have meetings of such public a.s.semblies. Cannot you submit, and, notwithstanding, do as much good as you can, in a neighbourly way, without having such meetings?

Bun. Truly, Sir, said I, I do not desire to commend myself, but to think meanly of myself; yet when I do most despise myself, taking notice of that small measure of light which G.o.d hath given me, also that the people of the Lord, by their own saying, are edified thereby. Besides, when I see that the Lord, through grace, hath in some measure blessed my labour, I dare not but exercise that gift which G.o.d hath given me for the good of the people. And I said further, that I would willingly speak in public, if I might.

Cobb. He said, that I might come to the public a.s.semblies and hear.

What though you do not preach? you may hear. Do not think yourself so well enlightened, and that you have received a gift so far above others, but that you may hear other men preach. Or to that purpose.

Bun. I told him, I was as willing to be taught as to give instruction, and looked upon it as my duty to do both; for, saith I, a man that is a teacher, he himself may learn also from another that teacheth, as the apostle saith: "Ye may all prophesy, one by one, that all may learn" (1 Cor 14:31). That is, every man that hath received a gift from G.o.d, he may dispense it, that others may be comforted; and when he hath done, he may hear and learn, and be comforted himself of others.

Cobb. But, said he, what if you should forbear awhile, and sit still, till you see further how things will go?

Bun. Sir, said I, Wicliffe saith, that he which leaveth off preaching and hearing of the Word of G.o.d for fear of excommunication of men, he is already excommunicated of G.o.d, and shall in the day of judgment be counted a traitor to Christ.[11]

Cobb. Ay, saith he, they that do not hear shall be so counted indeed; do you, therefore, hear.

Bun. But, Sir, said I, he saith, he that shall leave off either preaching or hearing, &c. That is, if he hath received a gift for edification, it is his sin, if he doth not lay it out in a way of exhortation and counsel, according to the proportion of his gift; as well as to spend his time altogether in hearing others preach.

Cobb. But, said he, how shall we know that you have received a gift?

Bun. Said I, Let any man hear and search, and prove the doctrine by the Bible.

Cobb. But will you be willing, said he, that two indifferent persons shall determine the case, and will you stand by their judgment?

Bun. I said, Are they infallible?

Cobb. He said, No.

Bun. Then, said I, it is possible my judgment may be as good as theirs. But yet I will pa.s.s by either, and in this matter be judged by the Scriptures; I am sure that is infallible, and cannot err.

Cobb. But, said he, who shall be judge between you, for you take the Scriptures one way, and they another?

Bun. I said, The Scripture should, and that by comparing one scripture with another; for that will open itself, if it be rightly compared. As, for instance, if under the different apprehensions of the word Mediator, you would know the truth of it, the Scriptures open it, and tell us that he that is a mediator must take up the business between two, and "a mediator is not a mediator of one, but G.o.d is one," and "there is one mediator between G.o.d and men, [even] the man Christ Jesus" (Gal 3:20; 1 Tim 2:5). So likewise the Scripture calleth Christ a complete, or perfect, or able high priest. That is opened in that he is called man, and also G.o.d.

His blood also is discovered to be effectually efficacious by the same things. So the Scripture, as touching the matter of meeting together, &c., doth likewise sufficiently open itself and discover its meaning.

Cobb. But are you willing, said he, to stand to the judgment of the church?

Bun. Yes, Sir, said I, to the approbation of the church of G.o.d; the church's judgment is best expressed in Scripture. We had much other discourse which I cannot well remember, about the laws of the nation, and submission to government; to which I did tell him, that I did look upon myself as bound in conscience to walk according to all righteous laws, and that whether there was a king or no; and if I did anything that was contrary, I did hold it my duty to bear patiently the penalty of the law, that was provided against such offenders; with many more words to the like effect. And said, moreover, that to cut off all occasions of suspicion from any, as touching the harmlessness of my doctrine in private, I would willingly take the pains to give any one the notes of all my sermons; for I do sincerely desire to live quietly in my country, and to submit to the present authority.

Cobb. Well, neighbour Bunyan, said he, but indeed I would wish you seriously to consider of these things, between this and the quarter-sessions, and to submit yourself. You may do much good if you continue still in the land; but alas, what benefit will it be to your friends, or what good can you do to them, if you should be sent away beyond the seas into Spain, or Constantinople, or some other remote part of the world? Pray be ruled.

Jailer. Indeed, Sir, I hope he will be ruled.

Bun. I shall desire, said I, in all G.o.dliness and honesty to behave myself in the nation, whilst I am in it. And if I must be so dealt withal, as you say, I hope G.o.d will help me to bear what they shall lay upon me. I know no evil that I have done in this matter, to be so used. I speak as in the presence of G.o.d.

Cobb. You know, saith he, that the Scripture saith, "the powers that be are ordained of G.o.d."

Bun. I said, yes, and that I was to submit to the king as supreme, also to the governors, as to them that are sent by him.

Cobb. Well then, said he, the King then commands you, that you should not have any private meetings; because it is against his law, and he is ordained of G.o.d, therefore you should not have any.

Bun. I told him that Paul did own the powers that were in his day, as to be of G.o.d; and yet he was often in prison under them for all that. And also, though Jesus Christ told Pilate, that he had no power against him, but of G.o.d, yet he died under the same Pilate; and yet, said I, I hope you will not say that either Paul, or Christ, were such as did deny magistracy, and so sinned against G.o.d in slighting the ordinance. Sir, said I, the law hath provided two ways of obeying: The one to do that which I, in my conscience, do believe that I am bound to do, actively; and where I cannot obey actively, there I am willing to lie down, and to suffer what they shall do unto me. At this he sat still, and said no more; which, when he had done, I did thank him for his civil and meek discoursing with me; and so we parted.

O that we might meet in heaven!

Farewell. J.B.

Here followeth a discourse between my Wife and the Judges, with others, touching my Deliverance at the a.s.sizes following; the which I took from her own Mouth.

After that I had received this sentence of banishing, or hanging, from them, and after the former admonition, touching the determination of the justices, if I did not recant; just when the time drew nigh, in which I should have abjured, or have done worse, as Mr. Cobb told me, came the time in which the King was to be crowned.[12]

Now, at the coronation of kings, there is usually a releas.e.m.e.nt of divers prisoners, by virtue of his coronation; in which privilege also I should have had my share; but that they took me for a convicted person, and therefore, unless I sued out a pardon, as they called it, I could have no benefit thereby; notwithstanding, yet, forasmuch as the coronation proclamation did give liberty, from the day the king was crowned to that day twelvemonth, to sue them out; therefore, though they would not let me out of prison, as they let out thousands, yet they could not meddle with me, as touching the execution of their sentence; because of the liberty offered for the suing out of pardons. Whereupon I continued in prison till the next a.s.sizes, which are called Midsummer a.s.sizes, being then kept in August 1661.

Now, at that a.s.sizes, because I would not leave any possible means unattempted that might be lawful, I did, by my wife, present a pet.i.tion to the judges three times, that I might be heard, and that they would impartially take my case into consideration.

The first time my wife went, she presented it to Judge Hale, who very mildly received it at her hand, telling her that he would do her and me the best good he could; but he feared, he said, he could do none. The next day, again, lest they should, through the mult.i.tude of business, forget me, we did throw another pet.i.tion into the coach to Judge Twisdon; who, when he had seen it, snapt her up, and angrily told her that I was a convicted person, and could not be released, unless I would promise to preach no more, &c.

Well, after this, she yet again presented another to Judge Hale, as he sat on the bench, who, as it seemed, was willing to give her audience. Only Justice Chester being present, stept up and said, that I was convicted in the court and that I was a hot-spirited fellow, or words to that purpose, whereat he waived it, and did not meddle therewith. But yet, my wife being encouraged by the high sheriff, did venture once more into their presence, as the poor widow did to the unjust judge, to try what she could do with them for my liberty, before they went forth of the town. The place where she went to them was to the Swan Chamber, where the two judges, and many justices and gentry of the country, were in company together.

She then, coming into the chamber with abashed face, and a trembling heart, began her errand to them in this manner:--

Woman. My Lord (directing herself to Judge Hale), I make bold to come once again to your Lordship, to know what may be done with my husband.

Judge Hale. To whom he said, Woman, I told thee before, I could do thee no good; because they have taken that for a conviction which thy husband spoke at the sessions; and unless there be something done to undo that, I can do thee no good.

Wom. My Lord, said she, he is kept unlawfully in prison; they clapped him up before there was any proclamation against the meetings; the indictment also is false. Besides, they never asked him whether he was guilty or no; neither did he confess the indictment.

One of the Justices. Then one of the justices that stood by, whom she knew not, said, My Lord, he was lawfully convicted.

Wom. It is false, said she; for when they said to him, Do you confess the indictment? he said only this, that he had been at several meetings, both where there was preaching the Word, and prayer, and that they had G.o.d's presence among them.

Judge Twisdon. Whereat Judge Twisdon answered very angrily, saying, 'What! you think we can do what we list; your husband is a breaker of the peace, and is convicted by the law,' &c. Whereupon Judge Hale called for the Statute Book.

Wom. But, said she, my Lord, he was not lawfully convicted.

Chester. Then Justice Chester said, 'My Lord, he was lawfully convicted.'

Wom. It is false, said she; it was but a word of discourse that they took for a conviction, as you heard before.

Chest. 'But it is recorded, woman, it is recorded,' said Justice Chester; as if it must be of necessity true, because it was recorded.

With which words he often endeavoured to stop her mouth, having no other argument to convince her, but 'it is recorded, it is recorded.'[13]

Wom. My Lord, said she, I was a while since at London, to see if I could get my husband's liberty; and there I spoke with my Lord Barkwood, one of the House of Lords, to whom I delivered a pet.i.tion, who took it of me and presented it to some of the rest of the House of Lords, for my husband's releas.e.m.e.nt: who, when they had seen it, they said that they could not release him, but had committed his releas.e.m.e.nt to the judges, at the next a.s.sizes. This he told me; and now I come to you to see if anything may be done in this business, and you give neither releas.e.m.e.nt nor relief. To which they gave her no answer, but made as if they heard her not.[14]

Chest. Only Justice Chester was often up with this, 'He is convicted,'

and 'It is recorded.'

Wom. If it be, it is false, said she.

Chest. My Lord, said Justice Chester, he is a pestilent fellow, there is not such a fellow in the country again.