Resolved That at the end of ____ years from the meeting of the Legislature of the United-States and at the expiration of every ____ years thereafter the Legislature of the United States be required to apportion the representation of the several States according to the principles of their wealth and population.

On the question to postpone, it pa.s.sed in the negative (Ayes--5; noes--5;)

It was moved and seconded to agree to the first clause of the resolution namely.

"That in order to ascertain the alterations that may happen in the population and wealth of the several States a "Census shall be taken of each State"

which pa.s.sed in the affirmative (Ayes--6; noes--4.)

(To adjourn. Ayes--1; noes--9.)

It was moved and seconded to agree to the following clause of the resolution, namely

"and three fifths of the inhabitants of other description"

which pa.s.sed in the negative. (Ayes--4; noes--6.)

It was moved and seconded to agree to the following clause of the resolution, namely

"On the first year after this form of government shall "have been adopted"

which pa.s.sed in the affirmative (Ayes--7; noes--3.)

It was moved and seconded to fill up the blank with the word "fifteen" which pa.s.sed unanimously in the affirmative (Ayes--10; noes--0.)

It was moved and seconded to add after the words fifteen years the words "at least"

which pa.s.sed in the negative (Ayes--5; noes--5.)

It was moved and seconded to agree to the following clause of the resolution namely

"and the Legislature shall alter or augment the representation accordingly"

which pa.s.sed unanimously in the affirmative (Ayes--10; noes--0.) On the question to agree to the resolution as amended it pa.s.sed unanimously in the negative. (Ayes--0; noes--10.) and then the House adjourned till tomorrow at 11 o'clock A.M.[545]

Taking up the question, Mr. Williamson urged again on the eleventh of July the counting of five Negroes as three white persons.

Mr. Williamson was for making it the duty of the Legislature to do what was right & not leaving it at liberty to do or not do it.

He moved that Mr. Randolph's proposition be postponed, in order to consider the following "that in order to ascertain the alterations that may happen in the population & wealth of the several States, a census shall be taken of the free white inhabitants and 3/5ths of those of other descriptions on the 1st year (after this Government shall have been adopted) and every year thereafter; and that the Representation be regulated accordingly.[546]

Mr. Butler & Genl. Pinkney insisted that blacks be included in the rule of Representation, _equally_ with the whites: (and for that purpose moved that the words "three fifths" be struck out.)[547]

Mr. Gerry though that 3/5 of them was to say the least the full proportion that could be admitted.

Mr. Ghorum. This ratio was fixed by Congs. as a rule of taxation.

Then it was urged by the Delegates representing the States having slaves that the blacks were still more inferior to freemen. At present when the ratio of representation is to be established, we are a.s.sured that they are equal to freemen. The arguments on ye.

former occasion had convinced him that 3/5 was pretty near the just proportion and he should vote according to the same opinion now.

Mr. Butler insisted that the labour of a slave in S. Carola. was as productive & valuable as that of a freeman in Ma.s.sts., that as wealth was the great means of defence and utility to the Nation they are equally valuable to it with freemen; and that consequently an equal representation ought to be allowed for them in a Government which was inst.i.tuted princ.i.p.ally for the protection of property, and was itself to be supported by property.

Mr. Mason could not agree to the motion, notwithstanding it was favorable to Virga. because he thought it unjust. It was certain that the slaves were valuable, as they raised the value of land, increased the exports & imports, and of course the revenue, would supply the means of feeding and supporting an army, and might in cases of emergency become themselves soldiers. As in these important respects they were useful to the community at large, they ought not to be excluded from the estimate of Representation. He could not, however, regard them as equal to freemen and could not vote for them as such. He added as worthy of remark, that the Southern States have this peculiar species of property over & above the other species of property common to all the States.

Mr. Williamson reminded Mr. Ghorum that if the Southn. States contended for the inferiority of blacks to whites when taxation was in view, the Eastern States on the same occasion contended for their equality. He did (not) however either then or now, concur in either extreme, but approved of the ratio of 3/5.

On Mr. Butlers motion for considering blacks as equal to Whites in the apportionment for Representation

Ma.s.sts. no. Cont. no. (N. Y. not on floor.) N. J. no. Pa. no.

Del. ay. Md. No. (Va. no) N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay. (Ayes--3; noes--7.)

Mr. Govr. Morris said he had several objections to the proposition of Mr. Williamson. 1. It fettered the Legislature too much. 2. It would exclude some States altogether who would not have a sufficient number to ent.i.tle them to a single Representative. 3. It will not consist with the Resolution pa.s.sed on Sat.u.r.day last authorizing the Legislature to adjust the Representation from time to time on the principles of population & wealth or with the principles of equity. If slaves were to be considered as inhabitants, not as wealth, then the sd Resolution would not be pursued: If as wealth, then why is no other wealth but slaves included? These objections may perhaps be removed by amendments. His great objection was that the number of inhabitants was not a proper standard of wealth. The amazing difference between the comparative numbers & wealth of different Countries, renderd all reasoning superfluous on the subject.

Numbers might with greater propriety be deemed a measure of strength, than of wealth, yet the late defence made by G. Britain agst. her numerous enemies proved in the clearest manner, that it is entirely fallacious even in this respect.

Mr. King thought there was great force in the objections of Mr.

Govr. Morris: he would however accede to the proposition for the sake of doing something.

Mr. Rutlidge contended for the admission of wealth in the estimate by which Representation should be regulated. The Western States will not be able to contribute in proportion to their numbers, they shd. not therefore be represented in that proportion. The Atlantic States will not concur in such a plan.

He moved that "at the end of ____ years after the 1st meeting of the Legislature, and of every ____ years thereafter, the Legislature shall proportion the Representation according to the principles of wealth & population"

Mr. Sherman thought the number of people alone the best rule for measuring wealth as well as representation; and that if the Legislature were to be governed by wealth, they would be obliged to estimate it by numbers. He was at first for leaving the matter wholly to the discretion of the Legislature; but he had been convinced by the observations of (Mr. Randolph & Mr. Mason) that the _periods_ & the _rule_ of revising the Representation ought to be fixt by the Const.i.tution

Mr. Reid thought the Legislature ought not to be too much shackled. It would make the Const.i.tution like Religious Creeds, embarra.s.sing to those bound to conform to them & more likely to produce dissatisfaction and Scism, than harmony and union.

Mr. Mason objected to Mr. Rutlidge motion, as requiring of the Legislature something too indefinite & impracticable, and leaving them a pretext for doing nothing.

Mr. Wilson had himself no objection to leaving the Legislature entirely at liberty. But considered wealth as an impracticable rule.

Mr. Ghorum. If the Convention who are comparatively so little biased by local views are so much perplexed, How can it be expected that the Legislature hereafter under the full bia.s.s of those views, will be able to settle a standard. He was convinced by the argument of others & his own reflections, that the Convention ought to fix some standard or other.

Mr. Govr. Morris. The argts. of others & his own reflections had led him to a very different conclusion. If we can't agree on a rule that will be just at this time, how can we expect to find one that will be just in all times to come. Surely those who come after us will judge better of things present, than we can of things future. He could not persuade himself that numbers would be a just rule at any time. * * * * * * * Another objection with him agst admitting the blacks into the census, was that the people of Pena. would revolt at the idea of being put on a footing with slaves. They would reject any plan that was to have such an effect. Two objections had been raised agst. leaving the adjustment of the Representation from time to time, to the discretion of the Legislature.[548]

The question of counting three-fifths of the Negroes as whites, however, would not down. According to Madison:

Mr. King, being much opposed to fixing numbers as the rule of representation, was particularly so on account of the blacks. He thought the admission of them along with Whites at all, would excite great discontents among the States having no slaves. He had never said as to any particular point that he would in no event acquiesce in & support it; but he wd. say that if in any case such a declaration was to be made by him, it would be in this. He remarked that in the (temporary) allotment of Representatives made by the Committee, the Southern States had received more than the number of their white & three fifths of their black inhabitants ent.i.tled them to.

Mr. Sherman. S. Carola. had not more beyond her proportion than N. York & N. Hampshire, nor either of them more than was necessary in order to avoid fractions or reducing them below their proportion. Georgia had more; but the rapid growth of that State seemed to justify it. In general the allotment might not be just, but considering all circ.u.mstances, he was satisfied with it.

Mr. Ghorum supported the propriety of establishing numbers as the rule. He said that in Ma.s.sts. estimates had been taken in the different towns, and that persons had been curious enough to compare these estimates with the respective numbers of people; and it had been found even including Boston, that the most exact proportion prevailed between numbers and property. He was aware that there might be some weight in what had fallen from his colleague, as to the umbrage which might be taken by the people of the Eastern States. But he recollected that when the proposition of Congs for changing the 8th art. of Confedn. was before the Legislature of Ma.s.sts. the only difficulty then was to satisfy them that the negroes ought not to have been counted equally with whites instead of being counted in the ratio of three fifths only.

Mr. Wilson did not well see on what principle the admission of blacks in the proportion of three fifths could be explained. Are they admitted as Citizens? Then why are they not admitted on an equality with White Citizens? Are they admitted as property, then why is not other property admitted into the computation? These were difficulties however which he thought must be overruled by the necessity of compromise. He had some apprehensions also from the tendency of the blending of the blacks with the whites, to give disgust to the people of Pena. as had been intimated by his colleagues (Mr. Govr. Morris). But he differed from him in thinking numbers of inhabts. so incorrect a measure of wealth. He had seen the Western settlemts. of Pa. and on a comparison of them with the City of Philada. could discover little other difference, than that property was more unequally divided among individuals here than there. Taking the same number in the aggregate in the two situations he believed there could be little difference in their wealth and ability to contribute to the public wants.

Mr. Govr. Morris was compelled to declare himself reduced to the dilemma of doing injustice to the Southern States or to human nature, and he must therefore do it to the former. For he could never agree to give such encouragement to the slave trade as would be given by allowing them a representation for their negroes, and he did not believe those States would ever confederate on terms that would deprive them of that trade.

On question for agreeing to include 3/5 of the blacks Masts, no Cont. ay N. J. no. Pa. no Del. no. Mard. no Va. ay. N. C. ay. S.

C. no. Geo. ay (Ayes--6; noes--4.)[549]

On the twelfth of July the following clause was proposed: