153. _Sir Robert Peel._ You have been five years connected with the Working Men's College?--Yes; I think about that time.

Is the attendance good there?--There is a fair attendance, I believe.

Of the working cla.s.ses?--Yes; in the other lecture-rooms; not much in mine.

Do they go there as they please without going beforehand for tickets?--They pa.s.s through an introductory examination, which is not severe in any way, but merely shows that they are able to take advantage of the cla.s.ses there; of course they pay a certain sum, which is not at all, at present, I believe, supporting to the college, for every cla.s.s, just to insure their paying attention to it.

You stated that you did not think lectures would be of any use unless there was what you called active intermediate study?--I think not.

What did you mean by active intermediate study? if a man is working every day of the week until Sat.u.r.day afternoon, how could that take place?--I think that you could not at all provide lectures once or twice a week at the inst.i.tutions throughout the kingdom. By intermediate study, I mean merely that a man should have about him, when he came into the room, things that shall tempt him to look at them, and get interested in, say in one bird, or in one plant.

While the lecture was going on?--No, that might be given once a fortnight, or once a month, but that this intermediate attention should be just that which a man is delighted to give to a single plant which he cultivates in his own garden, or a single bird which he may happen to have obtained; the best of all modes of study.

154. You are in favor of the Early Closing a.s.sociation?--I will not say that I am, because I have not examined their principles. I want to have our labor regulated, so that it shall be impossible for men to be so entirely crushed in mind and in body as they are by the system of compet.i.tion.

You stated that you would wish the hours during which they would be able to enjoy the inst.i.tutions to be as early as possible?--Yes, certainly.

But it would be impossible to have them earlier than they are now, on account of the organization of labor in the country.--I do not know what is possible. I do not know what the number of hours necessary for labor will ultimately be found to be.

Still you are of opinion that, if there was a half-holiday on the Sat.u.r.day, it would be an advantage to the working cla.s.ses, and enable them to visit and enjoy these inst.i.tutions?--Certainly.

155. You observed, I think, that there was a thirsty desire on the part of the working cla.s.ses for improvement?--Certainly.

And you also stated that there was a desire on their part to rise in that cla.s.s, but not out of it?--I did not say that they wanted to rise in that cla.s.s; they wish to emerge from it; they wish to become something better than workmen, and I want to keep them in that cla.s.s; I want to teach every man to rest contented in his station, and I want all people, in all stations, to better and help each other as much as they can.

But you never saw a man, did you, who was contented?--Yes, I have seen several; nearly all the very good workmen are contented; I find that it is only the second-rate workmen who are discontented.

156. Surely compet.i.tion with foreigners is a great advantage to the working cla.s.ses of this country?--No.

It has been stated that compet.i.tion is an immense advantage in the extension of artistic knowledge among the people of this country, who are rapidly stepping on the heels of foreigners?--An acquaintance with what foreign nations have accomplished may be very useful to our workmen, but a spirit of compet.i.tion with foreign nations is useful to no one.

Will you be good enough to state why?--Every nation has the power of producing a certain number of objects of art, or of manufacturing productions which are peculiar to it, and which it can produce thoroughly well; and, when that is rightly understood, every nation will strive to do its own work as well as it can be done, and will desire to be supplied, by other nations, with that which they can produce; for example, if we tried here in England to produce silk, we might possibly grow unhealthy mulberry trees and bring up unhealthy silkworms, but not produce good silk. It may be a question how far we should compete with foreigners in matters of taste. I think it doubtful, even in that view, that we should ever compete with them thoroughly. I find evidence in past art, that the French have always had a gift of color, which the English never had.

157. You stated that you thought that at very little expense the advantages to be derived from our national inst.i.tutions might be greatly increased; will you state why you think very little expense would be necessary, and how it should be done?--By extending the s.p.a.ce primarily, and by adding very cheap but completely ill.u.s.trative works; by making all that such inst.i.tutions contain thoroughly accessible; and giving, as I think I have said before, explanations, especially in a visible form, beside the thing to be ill.u.s.trated, not in a separate form.

But that only would apply to daytime?--To nighttime as well.

But would you not have to introduce a system of lighting?--Yes; a system of lighting I should only regret as applied to the great works of art; I should think that the brightest system of lighting should be applied, especially of an evening, so that such places should be made delightful to the workman, and withdraw him from the alehouse and all other evil temptation; but I want them rather to be occupied by simple, and more or less cheap collections, than by the valuable ones, for fear of fire.

If, at the British Museum, they had printed information upon natural history, that, you think, would do great good?--Yes.

158. You stated that you thought there was far more interest taken in foreign countries in the intellectual development of the working cla.s.ses than in England?--I answered that question rather rashly. I hardly ever see anything of society in foreign countries, and I was thinking, at the time, of the great efforts now being made in France, and of the general comfort of the inst.i.tutions that are open.

Not political?--No.

Still you think that there is more interest taken in the intellectual development of the working cla.s.ses in foreign countries than in England?--I think so, but I do not trust my own opinion.

I have lived abroad, and I have remarked that there is a natural facility in the French people, for instance, in acquiring a knowledge of art, and of combination of colors, but I never saw more, but far less desire or interest taken in the working cla.s.ses than in England.--As far as relates to their intellectual development, I say yes; but I think there is a greater disposition to make them happy, and allow them to enjoy their happiness, in ordinary a.s.sociations, at _fetes_, and everything of that kind, that is amusing or recreative to them.

But that is only on Sundays?--No; on all _fete_ days, and throughout, I think you see the working man, with his wife, happier in the gardens or in the suburbs of a town, and on the whole in a happier state; there is less desire to get as much out of him for the money as they can; less of that desire to oppress him and to use him as a machine than there is in England. But, observe, I do not lean upon that point; and I do not quite see how that bears upon the question, because, whatever interest there may be in foreign countries, or in ours, it is not as much as it should be in either.

But you were throwing a slur upon the character of the upper cla.s.ses in this country, by insinuating that abroad a great deal more interest was taken in the working cla.s.ses than in England. Now I a.s.sert, that quite the contrary is the fact.--I should be very sorry to express all the feelings that I have respecting the relations between the upper cla.s.ses and the working cla.s.ses in this country; it is a subject which cannot at present be discussed, and one upon which I would decline any further examination.

159. You stated that the working men were not so happy in this country as they were abroad, pursuing the same occupations?--I should think certainly not.

You have been in Switzerland?--Yes.

And at Zurich?--Not lately.

That is the seat of a great linen manufacture?--I have never examined the manufactures there, nor have I looked at Switzerland as a manufacturing country.

But you stated that there was much more interest taken in the intellectual developments of the working cla.s.ses in foreign countries than in England?--Yes; but I was not thinking of Switzerland or of Zurich. I was thinking of France, and I was thinking of the working cla.s.ses generally, not specially the manufacturing working cla.s.ses. I used the words "working cla.s.ses" generally.

Then do you withdraw the expression that you made use of, that in foreign countries the upper cla.s.ses take more interest in the condition of the working cla.s.ses, than they do in England?--I do not withdraw it; I only said that it was my impression.

But you cannot establish it?--No.

Therefore it is merely a matter of individual impression?--Entirely so.

You said, I think, that abroad the people enjoy their public inst.i.tutions better, because inspectors do not follow them about?--I did not say so. I was asked the question whether I thought teaching should be given by persons accompanying the workman about, and I said certainly not. I would rather leave him to himself, with such information as could be given to him by printed doc.u.ments.

160. _Mr. Sclater Booth._ With regard to the National Gallery, are you aware that there is great pressure and want of s.p.a.ce there now, both with regard to the room for hanging pictures, and also with reference to the crowds of persons who frequent the National Gallery?--I am quite sure that if there is not great pressure, there will be soon, owing to the number of pictures which are being bought continually.

Do you not think that an extension of the s.p.a.ce in the National Gallery is a primary consideration, which ought to take precedence of any improvement that might be made in the rooms as they are, with a view to opening them of an evening?--Most certainly.

That is the first thing, you think, that ought to be done?--Most certainly.

When you give your lectures at the Working Men's College, is it your habit to refer to special pictures in the National Gallery, or to special works of art in the British Museum?--Never; I try to keep whatever instruction I give bearing upon what is easily accessible to the workman, or what he can see at the moment. I do not count upon his having time to go to these inst.i.tutions; I like to put the thing in his hand, and have it about.

Has it never been a stumbling-block in your path that you have found a workman unable to compare your lectures with any ill.u.s.trations that you may have referred him to?--I have never prepared my lectures with a view to ill.u.s.trate them by the works of the great masters.

161. You spoke, and very justly, of the importance of fixing on works of art printed explanations; are you not aware that that has been done to some extent at the Kensington Museum?--Yes.

Do you not think that a great part of the popularity of that inst.i.tution is owing to that circ.u.mstance?--I think so, certainly.

On the whole, I gather from your evidence that you are not very sanguine as to the beneficial results that would arise from the opening of the British Museum and the National Gallery of an evening, as those inst.i.tutions are at present const.i.tuted, from a want of s.p.a.ce and the crowding of the objects there?--Whatever the results might be, from opening them, as at present const.i.tuted, I think better results might be attained by preparing inst.i.tutions for the workman himself alone.

Do you think that museums of birds and plants, established in various parts of the metropolis, ill.u.s.trated and furnished with pictures of domestic interest, and possibly with specimens of manufactures, would be more desirable, considering the mode in which the large inst.i.tutions are now seen?--I think in these great inst.i.tutions attention ought specially to be paid to giving perfect security to all the works and objects of art which they possess; and to giving convenience to the thorough student, whose business lies with those museums; and that collections for the amus.e.m.e.nt and improvement of the working cla.s.ses ought to be entirely separate.

If such inst.i.tutions as I have described were to be established, you would of course desire that they should be opened of an evening, and be specially arranged, with a view to evening exhibition?--Certainly.

It has been stated that the taxpayer has a right to have these exhibitions opened at hours when the workpeople can go to them, they being taxpayers; do not you think that the real interest of the taxpayer is, first, to have the pictures as carefully preserved as possible, and secondly, that they should be accessible to those whose special occupation in life is concerned in their study?--Most certainly.

Is not the interest of the taxpayer reached in this way, rather than by any special opportunity being given of visiting at particular hours?--Most certainly.

162. _Mr. Kinnaird._ Have you ever turned your attention to any peculiar localities, where museums of paintings and sh.e.l.ls, and of birds and plants, might be opened for the purpose referred to?--Never; I have never examined the subject.

Has it ever occurred to you that the Vestry Halls, which have recently been erected, and which are lighted, might be so appropriated?--No; I have never considered the subject at all.