_Minutes of Conference held at Pretoria on Monday, May 19, and following days between_ Lord KITCHENER _and_ Lord MILNER, _representing the British Government, and_ Commandant-General Louis BOTHA, Chief Commandant C. R. DE WET, General J. H. DE LA REY, General J. B. M. HERTZOG, _and_ General J. C. s.m.u.tS, _representing the Meeting of the People's Delegates a.s.sembled at Vereeniging on May 15, 1902_.

Mr. Advocate N. J. de Wet acted as interpreter, and as secretaries: for the British Representatives, Mr. O. Walrond, and for the Commission representing the Republics, the Rev. J. D. Kestell and Mr.

D. E. van Velden.

The Commission met the British Representatives in Lord Kitchener's house at 10 a.m. After the parties had taken their seats, General BOTHA said: To begin with, I wish to say that although the negotiations have occupied a longer time than we expected, I nevertheless wish to give Your Excellencies the a.s.surance of our good faith, and that everything is done seriously with the object of concluding the desired peace.

Further, I wish to say that everything we agree upon here must be submitted to the Representatives of our People for approval.

Thereupon the British Representatives said that they would like to hear what proposals the Commission had to make, and the letter (see page 98) written by the Committee was read.

Lord MILNER: On account of the wide difference between this proposal and that made by His Majesty's Government when we separated, I must say that I foresee no hope for good results from negotiation on this basis. I think that Lord Kitchener shares my view.

Lord KITCHENER: We can take these proposals into consideration, but I cannot see how we can bring them into accord with those of His Majesty's Government.

General BOTHA: If you take up that att.i.tude, we would like to have a final answer from you on our proposal.

Lord MILNER: Do you wish your proposal to be referred to His Majesty's Government?

General BOTHA: Yes, unless you have authority to give a final reply.

Lord MILNER: I am convinced that your proposal will not be accepted, and if you wish to make another proposal, it will injure you to refer this proposal to His Majesty's Government.

General BOTHA: If you have authority to reject our proposed basis, we would like to see you do so.

Lord MILNER: I have no hesitation to take upon myself to reject your proposals. The instructions received by me and Lord Kitchener are so clear on this point.

General BOTHA: Must I then understand that when Lord Salisbury said some time ago that this war was not waged with a view to obtaining territory he did not mean it?

Lord KITCHENER: There is now no question of territory, as the annexation stands.

General BOTHA: I fail to see that our proposal is in conflict with the annexation.

Lord MILNER: I do not recollect the exact words of Lord Salisbury, but it is true that Lord Salisbury said that his Government did not commence the war with the object of obtaining territory, but in the course of the war circ.u.mstances developed in such a manner that no other course was open than to annex the Republics, and my Government have expressed their fixed intention not to go back on their decision.

General HERTZOG: I would like to know what is really the difference between the basis now laid down by us and that laid down by His Majesty's Government in the negotiations last year? I do not mean so much in detail as in general principle.

Lord KITCHENER: Does your proposal a.s.sume that the Boers become British citizens?

General s.m.u.tS: I do not see that our proposal is necessarily in conflict with the proposal of last year. Our proposal only makes provision as regards the government.

Lord MILNER then read out the following clause from the terms offered last year (the Middelburg proposals, March 7, 1901)[3]: "At the earliest possible date military administration will cease and be replaced by civil administration in the form of a crown colony government. In each of the new colonies there shall be at first a Governor and Executive Council consisting of the princ.i.p.al officials, with a Legislative Council consisting of a certain number of official members, to whom will be added a nominated non-official element. But it is the desire of His Majesty's Government, as soon as circ.u.mstances permit, to introduce a representative element and ultimately to extend to the new colonies the privilege of self-government." "It may be," he remarked, "that I do not quite understand your proposal; but it appears to me to differ from the scheme here set forth not only in details but also in principle."

[Footnote 3: See Appendix, p. 210.]

General HERTZOG: I fully agree with you that it can be taken to differ in principle, but a principle that is found to vary even from principles adopted in Colonies of the same State. In other words, you find that one principle was conceded to one colony, while another principle was applied to another colony, and yet they belong to the same Empire.

Lord MILNER: Absolutely. There are different principles in different colonies, but it appears to me that the principle laid down in your proposal differs from that laid down by His Majesty's Government.

General HERTZOG: I believe that I express the opinion of the entire Commission when I say that we desire to have peace, and the remarks I have made were intended to show that I consider that if we mutually really wish to arrive at peace, we must not attach too much value to theoretical differences as long as the practical object be attained.

For instance, in the various colonies now const.i.tuting the United States of America, there were different principles for different colonies. Now the principle laid down in our proposal does not differ so much from your proposal that a practical difference would be created thereby, as would be the case if negotiations were confined strictly to your basis. I suppose that England's position towards South Africa is to arrive at a certain result with us, and that that result will now be equally well attained through our proposal as through the Middelburg proposals. And therefore I ask you whether the difference is so great that an entirely new situation will be created whereby England would not attain the object she has in view?

Lord MILNER: We compare two different matters. Here in the Middelburg proposals there are a number of definite proposals, which go into a great ma.s.s of details. I do not say that these details are perfect or are perfectly expressed. And I understand that it is entirely within the authority of Lord Kitchener and myself to confer further with you with reference to details, with the object of explaining anything that might be doubtful, and perhaps to make alterations which would not fundamentally affect the scheme. If you say that your proposals are not in conflict with the Middelburg proposals, there is no reason why you should not put your proposal aside and discuss the Middelburg proposals, which are definite.

General HERTZOG: I entirely admit that you are ent.i.tled to say that there is a fundamental difference between our proposals; but whether for the purpose for which we are together here that difference is of such a nature that if we are mutually inclined to make peace, we shall not arrive at something that would satisfy us both, and, further, that if we negotiated on the basis proposed by us, the same result would not be attained as by negotiating on the Middelburg proposals, I cannot see.

Lord MILNER: I understand that you grant that there is a fundamental difference between the two bases. Well, then I consider that we are not authorised to negotiate on a basis differing from that laid down in the last despatch from H.M. Government, and also differing from that contained in the Middelburg proposals. I may say that in their last message H.M. Government went as far as they possibly could to meet you. The whole spirit of the cablegram was to that effect.

Chief Commandant DE WET: You must understand that if I speak I do not do so as a lawyer. (Lord Kitchener, laughing: "It's the same case with me.") I fully agree with what General Botha and General Hertzog have said with reference to our being in earnest to establish peace; but to be brief I must say I did not understand that His Excellency Lord Milner could have intended, as I also view the matter, that we went to the people with the Middelburg proposals with the idea of returning with those proposals.

Lord MILNER: If I have given that impression it is not quite what I mean. But I think that you went to the people with the last message from His Majesty's Government in your minds, and it was clear from that message that His Majesty's Government were not prepared to take any terms into consideration which differed widely from the principle laid down in the Middelburg proposals.

Chief Commandant DE WET: So I understand the matter, too, and therefore we have come with a proposal that does not differ so much from those proposals.

General s.m.u.tS: I had thought that the vital principle for your Government was to get the independence out of the way. And here the independence of the two Republics, as far as foreign relations are concerned, is given away. I therefore thought that possibly the two parties would come to an arrangement on that basis. I did not think that the Middelburg terms were essential for the establishment of peace.

Lord MILNER: Not in details, but in general principles. If the British Government has laid down a basis, and you have had weeks to consider the matter, it will never do that you simply set it aside. Lord Kitchener has given you considerable time to consult the people; and now you come back and without even referring to the Middelburg proposals, you set aside those terms or that basis, and propose entirely different terms, and say: "Let us negotiate on them." I do not think that I and Lord Kitchener ought to do it; but if he takes another view the British Government can be asked whether they are prepared to set aside all the previous discussions and to commence now on a new basis.

Chief Commandant DE WET: We naturally cannot prevent Lord Kitchener from putting any question he pleases to his Government, but at the same time it is our request that you cable our request to the British Government.

General BOTHA: I cannot see that we have come here with a new basis, because in consequence of the negotiations during last April you were instructed by the British Government to encourage us to put forward new proposals. Our proposal stands in direct connection with that desire.

Lord MILNER: I did my best to get new proposals from you. But you would not make them. You forced the British Government to make proposals.

General BOTHA: I am of opinion that both parties should co-operate.

Lord KITCHENER: You were asked to put forward proposals, but you refused, and now after the British Government has made proposals you come forward with a proposal.

General DE LA REY: I think it was in consequence of the correspondence between the Netherlands and British Governments that we made our proposals. That correspondence was the commencement of the negotiations.

Chief Commandant DE WET: If we had had to make new proposals in April we would not have been able to put forward a proposal so reasonable and advantageous to the British Government as we do now, because unless the people consented we would have had to insist on retaining our entire independence.

Lord MILNER: I wish to remind you of what has taken place, and I do not do so to put you in the wrong, but to make the position clear, for these matters are very plain. You came and made a certain proposal.

The British Government gave a clear reply--they refused to accept it.

The reply was entirely straightforward and quite intelligible; and at the same time the British Government said: "We are desirous of peace; will you make other proposals?" You said: "No, we have no authority to do so without consulting the people." We admitted that argument. Then you said: "Let the British Government make proposals." The British Government did so, and they are equally ent.i.tled to an answer. What is the position you place Lord Kitchener and me in? You return with an entirely new proposal and say nothing of ours. This is not a reasonable treatment of the British Government, and we ought not to take your proposal into consideration.

General HERTZOG: I have attempted to point out that our reply really cannot be taken as no reply to the proposals of the British Government, because the great question raised in the correspondence last April between us and the British Government turned on the independence, and now after having consulted the people we come and say: "We are prepared to abandon the independence, and we define to what extent." And now, as General s.m.u.ts has said, that is exactly the basis that we lay down here in our proposal.

Lord MILNER: You say you abandon the independence as far as foreign relations are concerned?

General HERTZOG: Yes, but you must understand that this is only a basis, which we shall more fully specify later.

General s.m.u.tS: The independence is abandoned as far as foreign relations are concerned, and with reference to the internal government, that is placed under the supervision of the British Government, so that the effect of these two clauses is: That the independence is abandoned and that the two Republics cannot after that be considered as sovereign States.

Lord MILNER: I understand very well that they would not then be sovereign States, but my mind is not clear enough to be able to say what they would virtually be.

Lord KITCHENER: They would be a new kind of "International Animal."

General s.m.u.tS: As history teaches us, it has happened before that questions were solved by compromises. And this draft proposal is as near as we can come to colonial government.